Group: Ipernity Members Association Project

Interesting to see that the survey is now being allowed to run until 12th February as that will certainly allow more time for people to get involved and to have their say, which is surely good news and to be applauded! :)

Still, I’d be very interested to know though what exactly has happened and is happening about promoting the situation as a whole and the suggested creation of a member association as well as the ongoing survey to users.

Eric Desjours said a couple of months ago when the possibility of the IMA being set up was first mooted that it was "important to strictly organize the propositions and resulting actions within one unique and structured place", but the reality is that this has not really happened.

Don Sutherland also said in previous posts that he agreed strongly about "the critical importance of regular, timely, and open communication" and went on to say that "such communication is essential to growing and helping keep the community vibrant" and that "good, effective, and regular communication will be essential going forward", but again I suggest the reality is somewhat different to this vision.

Today anyone trying to make sense of the ongoing debate/discussion and perhaps seeking to form an opinion on the subject would need to wade through several articles by Team Ipernity that contain hundreds if not thousands of comments. Then there are the many discussion threads that have been created within the IMA group.

I would ask then can we please have another go at focussing people’s thoughts and opinions in one single place. Can we not close some of the older articles and discussions to help facilitate this?

And how about an undertaking by Team Ipernity and the IMA not only to closely follow the ongoing discussions, but to capture any ideas or suggestions that are being put forward?

Equally, there are many questions being asked that are either being overlooked or ignored, some of which have been asked on several occasions by a number of people. So, once again how about an undertaking by Team Ipernity and the IMA to answer these questions, which I’m sure would reduce the frustration many people are feeling with regards the current situation?

A single thread, perhaps entitled "Question & Answer" could be started purely so that people can ask the questions they want to ask and be assured that they will get an answer from whoever is best suited to give them it be that Team Ipernity or the IMA?

If such a forum were to be created then I myself would have many questions I would like to ask such as:

Q.1: Why did the discussions Team Ipernity were having with "several potential buyers" fail to result in the site being taken over and are any of the reasons things that the IMA and the wider user community needs to be aware of in seeking to take the site forward under shared ownership?

Q.2: We were told by Team Ipernity in early December that: "The decision to transfer ipernity to a third party or to shut down the service will be a decision taken collectively by all shareholders and be subject to a vote in the next weeks." Which poses the question did this meeting indeed ever take place and if so what was discussed/decided especially with regards the future of the site ... do the lesser shareholders of which we were told there were "thousands" even know the site is under threat of closure?

Q.3: William Sutherland said a couple of months ago that he believed "the IP team will not give us the option to save the site unless they receive a big payout", which makes me wonder what 'price' if any has been put on the transfer of ipernity to the IMA?

Q.4: A month ago Don Sutherland stated that "a full update from the Ipernity team as to critical issues (business model, technical details, finances) would provide much greater insight into the magnitude of the challenge involved." So, can the IMA please confirm if such information has now been made available to them or not?

Q.5: Team Ipernity apparently advised Tess McKenna a few weeks ago that they were planning to delete or suspend dormant accounts in order to provide the IMA with correct user numbers. So, can someone confirm where they are at with this process and what the correct figure is?

Q.6: What is happening with regards mailing users. How many messages have been sent and is this an ongoing exercise?

Q.7: How are potential recipients being selected, is it only Club members or are free users being targeted too? If so is priority being given to paid up Club members?

Q.8: Given the fact that some of the questions on the IMA survey are similar to the ones I had on my earlier unofficial poll and the fact that there’s always the possibility that some of those that replied to me a few weeks ago may not have completed the IMA poll, would you like a detailed copy of the information I gathered so that perhaps some of it can be used?

Q.9: How soon after the survey has closed can we expect the results to be made public and will a full and detailed analysis be available for everyone to be able to read and digest?

Q.10: Why is there still nothing on the official ipernity page on Facebook to draw attention to what is happening? As I've said before the last post was way back on January 10th and there has been nothing since regarding either the Member Association or the user survey.

Q.11: What is being done to make available to users the sort of tool that was created to implement a simple slide over from Flickr to Ipernity, which kept titles and descriptions etc. intact? I appreciate that this is something that might need to be implemented by Yahoo, but surely an approach by Team Ipernity would be useful in the first instance rather than it being left up to individuals?

Q.12: In the event of the IMA taking over the running of the site will the source code and programming etc. (in other words all that makes ipernity what it is) be given to the IMA and if so, should the project fail, can we have an undertaking that this will all be made available to the open source community?

Q.13: Many people have expressed concern that ipernity continues as an http site as opposed to https. Now this means nothing to me, but it would suggest there is a security issue with the current setup and if so I wonder what plans if any there are to address this going forward?

Q.14: There is little doubt that the use of social media to promote ipernity has been poor and ineffective, which raises the question of whether or not the IMA will take over the existing ipernity pages?

I personally would suggest that a fresh start with a clean slate and a new presence on each of the main social media platforms would be best, but it is how to best achieve this given that not taking over the existing presence might mean not being able to use the ipernity name as it would already be taken.

Q.15: Has the IMA given any thought as to the possibility of moving forward with a completely new brand/identity?

Yes, ipernity is established, but it is hardly widely known and for many is perhaps now tainted by what has happened over the last couple of years so I would think there may well be an argument for a change especially as the ultimate goal must surely be to grow the existing user base significantly.

Sorry to post such a lengthy submission, but I really do feel there are currently more questions than answers and it’s important that they are addressed especially as at some point people are going to be asked to make a financial contribution either through increased subs or some sort of crowd fundraising campaign.

As I said in a previous comment to Team Ipernity the simple fact is that over a year on from the 'elephant' campaign people are still having to scrape around looking for answers and uncertainty still hangs over the site like some Sword of Damocles.

Please note that none of this is intended as a criticism of the work that you guys are doing, it’s merely how I see the situation as it stands.

It may well be that you might disagree with some of what I’ve said, but even if that’s the case I do hope you are able to at the very least answer the questions I’ve raised and consider creating a "Question & Answer" thread so that others can put their questions forward in the hopes that they might actually be answered.

Please feel free to ask Team Ipernity to reply directly here to any questions I've raised, which you feel may be more appropriate for them to answer.

And please also note that I'm happy to delete this post and resubmit it should you indeed decide the idea of creating a "Q&A" thread does indeed have some merit.

Kind regards

PAUL

Brilliantly put together questions and relevant and important.
Q.6: What is happening with regards mailing users. How many messages have been sent and is this an ongoing exercise?
I have read in the blog
www.ipernity.com/blog/team/4648550 That 4 members only received the survey 3 days ago.
From the number of responses so far 1300 I fear that many have not yet been contacted. If I am right IP/ IMA have missed an opportunity to achieve maximum input to save IP.
I hope I am wrong.

I should also say that for me at least this is one final attempt at getting answers.

It's over 13 months since I first started trying to find out what was going on with ipernity and in the intervening months I have tried on many an occasion to engage with Team Ipernity and sought repeatedly to find ways that the community could work with them.

It's been a very difficult and frustrating exercise, which I guess is partly why I've found it difficult to believe that the IMA will be able to achieve their goals despite all of their good intentions and undoubted expertise.

And it's also why I've decided that I'm not going to keep on bashing my head against what feels like the proverbial brick wall. If I get answers this time then all well and good.

If not then I think for me at least this 'fight' is over. I'll step aside, keep my own counsel and as the song goes whatever will be, will be ... que sera, sera! ;)

Hi Paul,

Just a quick note, it appears that I was mistaken about the Ipernity team's motives. I believe they do want to see the site saved and are not interested in a payout based on my interaction with them. Still, even though it's frustrating, confidentiality is required and we try to release the info we can. I'm hoping when the survey closes we'll be able to give a clearer update that shows saving Ipernity is realistic and what the next step(s) will be.

I apologize I didn't mention the reopening of the survey earlier in this group. I thought it was redundant since the IP team mentioned it in their blog. Info will continue to be posted in this group mostly in the "Progress of the project..." thread.

At the same time, with re: to some of your questions such as http vs. https, social media presence, etc. they haven't come up for discussion yet. Right now it's important to keep the focus on saving the site and then looking into these other issues.

I believe, in my opinion, the "Ipernity" name should be saved since it is established. The only reason it isn't well known is because, as you point out, an near absences of marketing and promotion.

If Ipernity is saved, which appears more realistic by the day based on the latest survey data that I posted this morning in the "Progress of the project..." thread, there will be more frequent and open communication, a greater emphasis on promoting the site to ensure growth and a bright long-term future.

Questions re: the shareholder meeting and why the Ipernity team felt the IMA approach was optimal for saving the site can only be answered by the Ipernity team if they elect and can do so considering legal obligations and requirements they face.

Hope this has given you some assurance,

William

I appreciate you coming forward William and posting a response, but I'm sorry to say it still leaves me feeling far from reassured.

What you've said only provides clear answers to some of the questions and points I raised, whilst most have been overlooked, kicked into the long grass to be discussed another day or 'passed' for Team Ipernity to answer, which we both know is highly unlikely to happen.

I could go into more detail, but I'm fed up feeling as if I'm bashing my head against a brick wall, when it comes to trying to get answers - be that from Team Ipernity or the IMA.

So, like I said above ... que sera, sera! I really want to see ipernity saved, believe me I do, but the lack of information and transparency means I still have serious doubts that you can achieve that goal.

My head is really starting to hurt ... I mean, there are questions that I've asked that cannot be going unanswered due to any genuine need for confidentiality and there are good suggestions being made that don't even get a response never mind get picked up on! :(

And the worst of it all is that the ipernity brand becomes more and more tainted by the day. I really would have thought that the IMA would have learned from Team Ipernity's actions over the last couple of years how not to communicate with the community and yet it seems they are making and continue to make the same mistakes.

This isn't a private 'club' or at least it wasn't supposed to be, but that seems to be how the project is being managed. As it happens, I was asked to get involved, but declined for personal reasons, but you shouldn't need to be on the inside to have ready and easy access to the facts.

And when it does come to things that need to be kept confidential and cannot be put in the public domain what's wrong with sharing that information privately? What is it about being on the inside that suddenly appears to make you trustworthy and sensitive enough to be discrete, yet if you are on the outside you apparently cannot be trusted?

No wonder people stop trying to get answers, become disillusioned, switch off and go elsewhere to share their photos.

Now for heavens sake someone pass me a slice of chocolate cake! ;)

Thank you for your input and concerns Beyond-Zero. Your support of Ipernity is appreciated. I'm confident as we move into the next phase more information will become readily available.

Thank you Colin for your added info about Blipfoto. It adds to my optimism that Ipernity can be saved and have a successful long-term future with members' interests at heart.

www.enigmapeople.com/blog/interview-joe-tree-life-in-the-creative-industries-blipfoto-and-tech-start-ups A recent interview with Joe Tree who created Blipfoto may be of interest. He certainly mentiions the failed attempt with Polaroid branding 'the money dried up' and the user community saving the site.

Hi Colin
Thanks for the link. After Polaroid failed financially to save blifpforo"

"Fortunately, Blipfoto’s users pulled together and managed to crowdfund enough cash to buy the platform, putting it into community ownership and protecting it for the future. So the thing I created survived—and I hope will continue for many years to come.”
Of course we would need to know

how many members IP really has
The running costs Of IP
And the yearly income IP receives So a balance sheet is essential before considering if crowdfunding would be a runner

While what Joe Tree has to say about 'his baby' Blipfoto is interesting its possibly more informative to look at the people who saved Blipfoto and the methods

The investments were gathered here
www.blipfuture.com/invest

The people introuduce themsleves inthe the Blip Central Blog starting at
www.blipfoto.com/entry/2178080231326221495

This also has interesting information about the methods used to mass email users www.blipfoto.com/entry/2204355017505246976

Some time ago I wrote an email with a suggestion to the Ipernity team, but didn't get an answer on it. Anyway I would like to see what you think about it and got pointed to this thread to share the idea. Maybe one could implement it in the new IMA structure and give the site a new long term perspective. I would also be willing to participate in the implementation, as a physicist I have various skills that could be helpful. Here is my idea I wrote to Ipernity team:

Right now Ipernity is a relatively small platform with very good performance and well developed tools (also unique ones like the translation tool). Although the platform works far better then Flickr, from the outside it might be difficult for new users to see the difference and they may choose Flickr as it is the bigger platform. Furthermore the community of Ipernity is quite localized in Europe which might be part of the problem that it doesn't grow to a reasonable size. Now I see this local concentration as a big chance to give Ipernity a new orientation without losing it's current identity. For that let me explain in short my experinces with local photography groups and clubs. In Germany and even more in the UK there is a long tradition to organize in local communitys such as clubs or groups, I don't know about France but I assume it's not to different there. One problem that this old style clubs have in common (not only in photography) is that they are stuck in their structure and struggle to connect with the younger generation, meaning that I turned out to be the youngest guy in the clubs I have seen so far. Most clubs are willing to adapt to attract younger people but don't know how to do that.
Since Ipernity is in some sense a modern version of such a community with similar goals and aims, my idea is to connect Ipernity with the "real world" by extending the platform with an area for local activity. This area could be used by clubs and groups, but also by single persons, to organize meetings as well as post information about local events like exibitions or photography classes and competitions. This would not only give the local groups a platform to connect and attract new members but also Ipernity lots of new users since most of this photographers are now scattered over different platforms. From what I see the only main thing that is missing so far in order to start such local area would be a calender to post dates and events plus some smaler modifications on group and map functions.
This new service would hold quite some financial potential! My idea would be to give Ipernity club members the ability to post unlimited events, while non-club members could post single events with a single fee charged. To attract organized clubs and groups I would add a Ipernity membership for whole clubs, with cost either depending on the club size or same cost for all clubs with a discount for their members if they get an Ipernity membership (or both models to chose from). And last but not least this local area could contain an index-like section (with map feature in future) for local shops which would pay to advertise their service, again with maybe free ads for Ipernity club members. This would bring money by ads, but in the same time would keep the rest of Iperinty free from ads since they are only found in the local area. Also this ads would be cheap for shops, since no other company like Google would get money out of it, plus with the index structure they could strenghten small local shops which are often hard to find via online search.
The best thing is that Ipernity, as it is now, would not change at all for people who like Ipernity as it is, but would give a much higher value to members that also like to meet with other photographers in their area or groups that need a place to organize, advertise or connect. The local functions could be added in the top bar together with "groups" and "contacts" and would hide there for people that are not interested in them.
Most of the functions and services that I suggest already exist on other websites. Flickr is popular for sharing, but bad for discussions or posting general information. To meet other photographers people mostly use internet forums (or sometimes Facebook), but they only reach members of the single forums and the organization for larger groups is a pain. Then most of the organized camera clubs have websites, but many of them are not well cared for since it takes time and/or the clubs are hard to find via Google. The same can be said about local stores for printing, framing and gear. Finally calenders for exibitions exist, but again they often don't inform about smaller local camera club exibistions. All the descriped local services are needed and just wait to be implemented into one single platform!

may I have the excecutive summary please ;-)

Well, a summary would maybe miss some of the motivation, but I'll try.
My proposal goes into the direction to use existing features of Ipernity, like maps, groups, translation and video player, and extend them with calenders, organization features and lists for (paid) adverts to local shops and exibitions, with the goal to connect people in local communitys via Ipernity. One could say it would be like a Facebook for photographers and artists with special features to fit their needs and without steeling their pictures and a transparent organization.
I could also imagine to give photographers and artists a platform for offering video tutorials and online workshops, almost all the tools are there already, just need reorganization. Also competitions, which are quite big in local clubs in Britain, could be held online in a larger audiance.
This new features would be unique so far and would also bring some new sources of money. And they would connect the local clubs and communities, which also struggle to get younger members, to a younger generation which lives mostly online.
One problem so far is, that the youngest are not really using Ipernity, to attract them it would be necessary to find an additional concept. But thinking with connecting generations and online/offline in mind is in my mind the right direction.

."It has become an information vacuum " Yes BZ you are so right and it will continue to be so until the Ipernity team respond, not the IMA, respond to the actual results of the survey. All we can do is wait and wait and wait, until they IP respond. So mean while we are I feeling howling at the moon. End of Story

To all,

You will have info either Friday or Saturday (at the latest) re: Survey results.

Glad to finally hear something conclusive on this issue William! :)

That said, given all the complaints about poor communication on this matter from both the IMA and Team Ipernity, can you please confirm that what will be published will be a full and detailed analysis that everyone will be able to read and digest?

And by that I mean something similar to how I presented the User Poll Update when I'd finished compiling the results of the unofficial survey that I undertook last year.



Something that clearly describes and accounts for the answers given to each question, that provides figures in percentage of votes cast, and that allows the reader to understand not only the 'headline' figures, but what the difference was between Club and free account holders?

It would also be worth considering making the information available in document form, possibly Word, PDF and/or Excel as all of these can be posted on ipernity for download.

I published the survey results in the "Progress" section of this group. Hope everyone can see they are very positive and show Ipernity can really be saved if people really meant what they answered and stand by their answers.

I also believe the few people who said they wouldn't join a membership association probably would if the platform was successfully saved and maintained its unique features.

As the rescue of Blipfoto has been mentioned again - I thought there may be some interest in this - its 1 year since the site was relaunched this weekend and that is mentioned in this blog www.blipfoto.com/entry/2279350422772649519
It includes a link to the first ANNUAL REPORT which shows that the american company that bought Blipfoto from Joe Tree still have a financial interest but only non-voting shares in Blipfoto they obviously think they may still make money from dividends in the future.

Sorry for not reading through the previous posts. I'm happy that there seems to be a way to save ipernity!

My suggestions: allow mulitple accounts per person. I'd like to pay for 2 accounts, a private and a public one.

Interesting point and suggestion. Personally, I'd think if people are willing to pay for 2 accounts there wouldn't be a problem in them having them.

What I would suggest though is that if in the new era there are still to be free accounts that these should possibly be limited to say 3 months maximum and no more than 1 such account per person.

There are many people on here that have multiple free accounts and I don't think that can have done anything to help ipernity's case ... I know of someone who has 6 free accounts and not one single Club account, which to me at least is all wrong.

Manu,

I'm not sure anything would prevent you from having two accounts if you have two different user names. In one you could list every photo as private and no one would see them.

Bad news for users of Fotoblur as it has been announced this week that the site will close on March 1st, 2017.

However, this does mean that there will be a lot of people looking for a new home for their photos so perhaps an opportunity for those trying to save ipernity to exploit?

Here's the full announcement as posted on Facebook:



Thanks to Roger Dodger for initially drawing this to my attention! :)

I would be careful about promoting Ipernity right away to Fotoblur's members. Considering they just got the news, their emotions will be very raw. To try and exploit their misery could be a turn off. We don't want to take advantage of them since in their shock and dismay they still have loyalties to their site as many of us here do at Ipernity. They may put up a fight to save their site as we are doing here. It's not an easy decision to simply find another site.

I agree William there may well be difficulties here given the sensitivities on all sides.

Just picking up on a post I made in one of the other threads ...

I think many of the comments and suggestions being put forward underline how much this site means to us all, I'm struck most William by that last remark you made in that "the priority remains first and foremost to save the site".

Perhaps we all need to reflect on that and keep our powder dry shall we say for another day. I'm sure that if the site is indeed saved there will be lots of opportunity to revisit these ideas and many more that we probably haven't even thought of yet.

Equally, perhaps what would also be helpful William would be for you (and by that I mean those currently administering this group) to let us know what if anything we can do at this time to make your lives easier and the tasks in hand more manageable?

Is there anything specific that you guys could do with help with or are there specific skills you feel the current team may be lacking somewhat?

I think up until now those of us not within the inner circle have been concentrating all our efforts on trying to answers and putting forward suggestions that as you've rightly said are perhaps for another day. And I've probably been as guilty of that as anyone, but maybe now it's time to put much of that to one side and start doing all we can to save this great site.

So, the ball is now in your court guys. Please, let us know what help if any you feel you could do with at this point in time?

Ich habe es schon an anderer Stelle gefragt:
Was ist der Plan - außerhalb von Geld?

WER macht die praktische ARBEIT:
Das alte Team?
IMA-Mitglieder nach Feierabend?
Neue bezahlte Fachkräfte?

Was ist der PLAN??

CROWDFUNDING HAS BEGUN!!! CROWDFUNDING A COMMENCÉ
See the post here:

www.ipernity.com/group/2260604/discuss/186760

**** GO DONATE HERE: www.generosity.com/community-fundraising/ipernity-members-association-a-non-profit-entity/x/16237256

SPREAD THE NEWS AROUND ANY WAY YOU CAN - POST AS PHOTO, SHARE IN COMMUNITIES, SHARE ON FLICKR AND 23HQ, DECLARE FROM THE TOP OF THE MOUNTAIN!! COPY THIS AND PUT WHERE EVER YOU WANT.

Yes it has but refuses to accept my Donation.

Probably due to the stupid laws existing here in Denmark regarding online purchase.

This I normally deal with by using PayPal which it seems is not an option.

HELP HELP HELP

How about this... I pay it on behalf of you, name you as a source of donation, and then you send me equal amount of money via PayPal. Then if this project fails, I will refund you the money.

EDIT: And I replied here to make sure everyone else notices this as an option.

EDIT: But surely we need other options to pay the actual memberships when we hopefully reach that stage.

EDIT: And IMA administrators has to be informed on this kind of arrangements to make sure the actual person paying the donation gets also membership continued. There are plenty of details that makes me wonder how they are dealt with.

I was hoping to use PayPal and I hope this will be an option when it comes to paying annual subscription, but I was able to donate via the provided link in US dollars from the UK.

Dont' you have an account where we can pay directly from the bank?

Indiegogo actually offers two options. I suppose 'Generosity' was chosen because it is more suitable for this cause than 'Indiegogo':
support.generosity.com/hc/en-us/articles/212016158-FAQs-for-Organizers

"Should my campaign live on Indiegogo or Generosity?

Generosity is a place for people to raise funds for themselves, a loved one or a nonprofit. Indiegogo is a place to raise funds for a creative or entrepreneurial pursuit."

"How do donors give to my fundraiser?

Anyone with a credit card can donate to your fundraiser. Generosity accepts Visa, Mastercard, Discover, and American Express. At this time, we do not accept prepaid cards. Other third party payment processors, such as PayPal, are not available on Generosity."

So, unfortunately only credit cards are accepted. But don't worry, currently it looks like there are plenty of generosity among all of those who have a credit card, and some of them have already doubled what they planned to donate =D

I suggest we all need to start collaborate even more if and when IMA aka us takes the control. Within IMA we are no longer customers but indeed members of the community.

We all can advertise the web site, and we all can help each other. For example we can seek for relevant information and answers to avoid misunderstandings ;-)

(Also spent an email on this to one of the initiators of the campaign)

Would it please be possible to open a Paypal or (for Eurozone members) bank account for the crowdfunding donations? Now the only option is a credit card through that "Generosity" website, and I am not comfortable with that.

Thanks in advance!

Johan, I'm afraid PayPal is not an option because of this: techcrunch.com/2016/05/09/paypal-will-no-longer-protect-your-crowdfunding-cash

You may try to ask if some of your Ipernity friends could pay on behalf of you, and then after the results of campaign is declared, you can reimburse to that friend of yours via PayPal if the campaign was a success.

Pay Pal no longer support crowdfunding sites.
www.wired.co.uk/article/paypal-ends-crowdfunding-payment-protection

Tess, links to those url addresses don't work because there's no line break between them.

EDIT: Oh, there is just one url twice. Anyway here's the same:
www.wired.co.uk/article/paypal-ends-crowdfunding-payment-protection

Thanks Sami You are right the link does not work. Ouch So I have edited it

Up Date from William Blog www.ipernity.com/group/2260604/discuss/186760
William Sutherland
I have been informed that some people mistakenly think there is plenty of time and ignore the real urgency of the situation. They think because their subscription runs until late 2017 or even into 2018 Ipernity will not shut down. This is not true!

The crowdfunding campaign is separate and independent of peoples' subscription payment to Ipernity S.A. and meant to erase a significant shortfall and buy time for the transfer of ownership to IMA. If the goal is not met, Ipernity WILL shutdown at the end of the month. It will be deemed financially unviable to continue. Therefore it is critical that everyone who wants Ipernity to continue participate in the crowdfunding.

Thank you to all who have already contributed and thank you in advance to those who will to save this great site.
24 hours ago.

Can I pose a question in anticipation that IMA will meet it's target and is able to take control in April, How will the IMA collect and hold members annual subscription payments?.

I suppose it still remains to be seen how some technical details are done. My wild guess is that IMA board names one responsible person to "guard the money chest". Then the already existing Ipernity code is used to direct the membership payments to IMA's bank account.

I understand some people have been worried whether they can trust to IMA board. But just as well we could ask whether we can trust on some company? There of course has to be named all sorts of personnel to take care of IMA board.

See already published details here:
ipernityma.wixsite.com/ipernityma/bylaws

Just to say that in addition to contacting everyone who completed my own user survey from a few months ago (over 200 people in total) I have now worked my way through the entire membership of the IMA group.

If they have an 'open' guestbook then I've added a statement drawing their attention to the crowdfunding campaign and providing a link to the donations page. Along with that, if their settings allow, I've posted the photo you've seen on my photostream announcing that crowdfunding has begun.

If they have a 'closed' guestbook then I have sent them an ipernity mail providing the link to the donations page.

Admittedly, there was some overlap between the two groups, but it should still have alerted a good few hundred more people to what is going on.

I know some might say that if they are interested in the work of the IMA or have joined the group they will have been following what’s going on, but I don’t think it’s that simple.

In fact, I know that it isn’t as I’ve already had messages back thanking me and saying that they had been unaware that the crowdfunding had begun so it just goes to show there’s still much to be done to promote the campaign.

As I've already said, I really wish it were possible for the IMA to act in a similar fashion and message all of the people that completed the survey. I appreciate it’s a cumbersome task compiling the information, but it can be done as I’ve proven.

Please think again about this … it might be too much for one person, but I’m sure if we shared the workload it could be done fairly easily.

I’ve also added some notes on my photostream explaining how to create ‘named’ hyperlinks for those that don’t understand the process. It might be worth people using this whenever they leave a comment or visit someone’s guestbook to link to the donations page.

Creating Named Hyperlinks ...

Just letting you know the Crowdfunding email arrived in my Inbox about an hour ago... so that part of Information sharing is working !

Got mine also in my inbox

@Sami Serola done; a friendly Dutch member has offered help.

Important news from Audery IP
www.ipernity.com/blog/2058508/4654686

Hello,

I'm sad to announce that we have a possible fraud artist in the donation of IMA crowdfunding for ipernity.

It means that rather than almost 21k, we are at almost 18k which is still a great number in such a few day.

IMA contacted Indigogo (who owns Generosity) to investigated the question.

It doesn't mean that giving through Generosity isn't safe, simply that somebody stole credit card numbers somewhere and are using it to make donation for odd reasons.

Please continue to participate, donate or spread the information.

We'll post something in the team blog once the thing will be sorted out.

Thank you,

Audrey

IPERNITY

Ipernity is not only a Photo sharing platform.
For the I A M to refer to Ipernity as such is very misleading, Ipernity was not such when I joined in 2011 but a general social file sharing site of quality with strict T O S making it a desirable place to share Media with like minded friends and or make new online friends without fear of the form of Mobbing found on most Social networks.

That the platform was changed regarding photo sharing and then developed to give a superior Photo sharing section was at the request of many people joining us from Flickr, this was not a bad thing as it eventually became far better than the Flickr platform for photo sharing.
We must not forget that many Ipernity users do not post many photos but do write articles, short stories and recipes to share, many also produce photo slide shows using either a video based model or by using MS PowerPoint to which both Narrative and or Music sound can be added. Many also produce videos only.
Such users do not require so much server space as the big photo users so therefore a graduated form of subscription would be a good way of re-constructing the Platform to serve all needs using graduated prices per annum accordingly.
I suggest the following.
A. Three months free trial after which these newcomers would be required to pay for usage according to their needs.
B. Bloggers at 12.5€ P A.
C. Advanced at 25€ P A.
D. Club at maximum 50€ but preferably a bit lower.

This model would turn Ipernity into a better than break even platform to the benefit of the owners and shareholders as well as paying for the server space required.
Sponsoring from Advertisements although the revenue would be small could also be used as we need people to answer the phone etc, and software specialists. Other forms of gaining revenue should also be found and no doubt other members have given ideas during the recent months.
John aka Stromlizard.

Thank you for your suggestion John. At this time, I am not sure the site can be structured this way. Many people perform multiple functions on Ipernity. I share photos, write articles and participate in groups. The Advance annual fee would be insufficient to cover real costs that at a minimum amount to more than $5,000 per month without considering problem resolution, platform upgrades, etc. It also does not include the software specialists and customer support personnel you suggest.

We need a firm revenue potential for Ipernity S.A. to agree to the transfer of ownership. Taking anything away from IMA's proposal, which would result from three-tier fee structure would result in failure. While in the future we can be open to the annual membership fee amount, I think the multi-tier approach would in the long-term add costs and reduce potential revenue especially since music clips and video clips often utilize greater server space and require higher bandwidth usage.

Thank you William for your qick response.

Yes, very true, I too use all functions available, the fact that they were part of the origiinal Platform was my reasn for choosing Ipernity when Multiply was purchased by investors and converted to an online shopping Mall.
I see, I thought that without a few paying for what is currently the majority would be a better balance. The idea is not new as there are small platforms running (Al beit not well) such as Schmoozezone, this one was constructed by ex Multiply enthusiasts but their three tier model is far too restrictive to be attractive.
Ihad suggested this model more or less long ago before the I M A was formed, some people agreed. Now I re submit simply because a friend on Ipernity posted a more or less goodbye photo yesterday say 'This will probably be my final post because the I M A are priceing us out.'

Yes I am also aware that software modifications would be required to produce such a system.
I am also aware that if the price of membership is 50€ per anum many people will simply leave.
John.

I totally agree with John and many others who have advocated for a tiered system. A tiered system would provide much more revenue and keep membership numbers up. If a compulsory fee of €50 us put in place as the only way membership of the IMA exists. So many people will leave IP/IMA and therefore the remaining member numbers left would render the site with so little activity. And also financially non viable.
I know you need IT expertise to develop a tiered system but to me it will be vital to find an IT expert.

Example of how a Tiered system could maximize Revenue

If 2/3rds club members who responded in the survey (962) agreed to pay double the club fee the income would rise to €48,100
If the remaining 1/3 (481) members could continue to pay the present fee (418) @ €25 the income would be €12,025
The total from the above € 60,125

If half of the present non paying club members estimated at (59,000) were to pay €15 (€0.29 per week) The income generated would be €885,000
The resulting Total increased income for IP would be €979,720

As an incentive to encourage non club members to pay €15 an increase in the number of images viewable in their poststream could be put in place.

John,

It is disappointing to hear some people are leaving even before the outcome is determined or rushing to judgement. I don't see what people have to lose by remaining for the transition or to the end, which ever it may be.

I agree William but that is the truth of the matter, people that cannot for oner of many reasons afford to pay 50$ P A are bound to leave as soon as their current memebership expires
It was also clearly made obvious in the Survey, many Club members said no thanks I will never pay more than 25$.
I too have difficulty in finding the money and need to cut back on food to do so and to have been able to donate as I pledged. Fixed low state pesions here are liable to Tax, and prices rise continuously.

People were left to long at the beginning of the campagne with out word from either party, their thoughts on what and what might not be festered fuelled by negativity and rumour. Do not forget many of those were not necessarily 100% behind the initiative in the beginning and with thoughts that 50 Euro will be the membership fee is a turn off for many, Flickr charge that for their best package and not everybody needs that. It possibly is those people who are wavering now or have already found other sites.

From all of your comments here folk Ithank you firstly for support and at the same time see that should 50$ PA become the only way to enjoy Ipernity will leave the stable bare of users and ultimately the end of the Platform
I was enthusiastic about joining the I M A in the hope that my pre-paid subscription up unti October 2018 would not be lost, that however seems to have already vanished in the mist of time.
I donated more than my pledged amount but not with ease as Denmark and Danish Visa cards are acceptable by the collecting organisation so I had help from a friendly contact that paid on my behalf, I re-emburse him using my PayPal account
We the I A M look like succeeding in our Crowdfunding meaning that everybody that cannot or will not pay 50$ will lose the lot.
Not exactly what I and many others were hoping for.

I think that many users of ipernity would want a tired membership solution. To make a good argument for this, we need a good understanding of the costs of running the site. Once IMA takes over the site (hopefully) it would be sensible if the detail of the costs were made available. I would welcome a statement of intention to do that.

Ticket #38064

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Monday March 20, 2017 at 08:40AMTess Mc Kenna says:

Hi Team
Can you confirm that at this time all members have had an email to alert them regarding the Crowdfunding. In my opinion this is vital to push along the level of donations and allow the IMA to succeed financially
Regards Tess

I thought I should contact IP Team to confirm the email regarding alerting as many members as possible have been contacted. as I have said many times not everyone reads blogs but they do read their personal mail.

Tess, IP SA mentioned they emailed all account holders. I know some people may not agree, but if this is the case, then it appears to me we still have a lot of dead accounts that need removal so that monthly costs can be further reduced by freeing up server space. To me it is not possible that the number of active accounts they indicated would generate such a small response.

Realistically based on what Fotoblip discovered re: total accounts and active accounts, we probably here have about 2500 active accounts -- just enough to sustain the site and make it viable. There is no rational reason to maintain the dead accounts in excess of this number especially with April so close. Eliminating them before April could reduce the monthly Amazon bill to create a stronger site.

Agreed William. As I have already said they IP/SA said they would delete all inactive / dormant accounts Whether they did so I have not idea

IPERNITY Part II.

I used much of last night thinking about the comments, and alternative financial put forward by others.
I reread many of the older threads to articles published by the Ipernity Team, the I M A and various users including ideas of what to do to get the platform back onto a profitable path.

Remembering the recent remarks of Club members jumping ship at this time lead me to the belief that if the I M A insist upon 50€ as the fee no matter how the users wish to utilise the site will result in so few Members remaining that all will fall down meaning that all the hard work put into saving the platform will have been a wasted effort.

In my previous suggestion I suggested the following.

A. Three months free trial after which these newcomers would be required to pay for usage according to their needs.

B. Bloggers at 12.5€ P A.

C. Advanced at 25€ P A.

D. Club at maximum 50€ but preferably a bit lower.

This model would turn Ipernity into a better than break even platform to the benefit of the owners and shareholders as well as paying for the server space required.

I now suggest a democratic vote as to how the I A M should go forward when we reach the Target which seems very likely.

Yes I know, a tiered system needs a special software controlled bandwidth filter, this could certainly be dealt with later as the revenue from the extra number of users willing to pay the alternative fees would allow this. At the same time we would be in a position to search for other sources of revenue needed to pay staff and other running costs.

To be successful in business does not mean charging the highest price for a product, but being able to produce a reliable product at a lower price than your competitors.
I know that this is true because I personally ran my business that way for 30 years.

John.

John, I appreciate your opinion, but...

I agree to the 3 months free trial
A tiered system would require system changes at the wrong point in time. We have to get the platform running and as we all know by now, that is not possible at 25€/yr.
50€/yr is just one beer in the pub or one lousy coffee at starbucks per month.
Smugmug charges 50$ per yr and they are successful. They just offer a one month trial.
Just my 2 cents

Hi Lutz
Your words "A tiered system would require system changes at the wrong point in time" When is the right time ?????? When the horses have bolted and it's to late to close the stable doors. Don't mean to be aggressive or rude but I feel at this stage those who have asked for a tiered system may as well be howling at the moon.
Regards Tess.

You are right in the context you put it, 1/2 a pint of beer a week is small change, the problem is I cannot afford to drink 52 half pints of beer in one go.

Nor can I, in fact Inever buy coffee while out, water is free. Beer is another I never drink, I prefer to keep my right to drive.

Hi John
This is along the lines I have advocated and suggested again and again. If the system is not tiered to allow affordability of members personal financial situations then IMA will loose so much possible revenue and also lack of member numbers where only the few out of many can pay the compulsory €50. It's a lost cause.

Thank you Tess, yes I mentioned your two propsals under 'Other members', you are not alone in this idea. The excuse quoted by Lutz saying 'Software modification at the wrong time' does not really hold water in my mind as I feel it better to have many paying members, the software modifications can wait as it won't hurt the purpose during whatever intirim period needed than to try closing the stable door after the horses are over the hills and far away.
Yes, I am one of those on a fixed lowrate state pension, to pay my donation I have been forced to eat kn the garden with the birds, I now have topay for a medical exam to renew my drivers license and the license so may be forced bby lack of funds to not pay the 50€ when it becomes due.
Like the buiness I ran for 30 years, I M A /iPERNITY does not need to be the most expensive to succeed.

I understand and agree with the concerns that people have about the cost of membership. However unless the details of the costs of running ipernity are made public, we do not know what options are viable. Perhaps we need to concentrate on encouraging people to support the crowd funding. If the crowd funding is not successful there will be no ipernity to be members of.

Exactly !!!

At the current time we have no idea as to many 'Paying' members there will be.

Judging rom the large difference between the number of users replying to the Survey and those that have actually Donated in the Crowdfunding project I have difficulty in seeing how the I M A Board have calculated any expectancy of revenue.

It does seem to me that many users have had second thoughts.

Following the logic of survey results:
www.ipernity.com/group/2260604/discuss/186528

We got 1443 participating to the survey, 2/3 = 962 (majority) of them thinking 50€ (or more) per year is alright. 97% said they desire Ipernity to continue (meaning they supposedly are okay that IMA continues it). 97% out of 1443 is 1400, meaning supposedly and hopefully all of them agrees on the opinion of the 2/3 majority as pays the 50€ annual fee. It then makes 70,000€. Then I have understood the costs per month at the moment are 5,000€, making 60,000€ per year. Although, I'm not sure if some of the costs were actually in dollars...

Nevertheless, with that 1400 users and current server costs, there is no much to clearance. I've seen the other suggestions of having different rates based on whether one is using just blog or full features. But to hire someone to implement that will cost as well.

I don't know whether people really, really have understood the troubles we are in. This opportunity is however all we have at the moment, to keep the service running, and take to control into our own hands.

EDIT: William has said the annual costs can be even 66,000€: www.ipernity.com/group/2260604/discuss/186298/comment/50234040#comment50234040
I have understood they can not reveal the exact details as long as Ipernity S.A. is still the official owner, but I believe that is what it takes to run the web site with current amount of users and settings.

Because Ipernity S.A. have kept the true situation from us it is no wonder that many fail to understand, The Logic of the Survey results are at best only guess work, we must also remember that among those 1400 users many are Free users.
I know rom my 102 Club member contact friends that many jumped ship on Jan one and although there accounts are not closed they state that they have no intension of returning to a higher fee.

No doubt there are several people without Credit or Direct debit cards that would have them in a similar situation to myself as My card was refused due to it being Danish. There can also be many that have language problems.

I still maintain thathaving three rates, perhaps two but never one alone would bring in more revenue to make whatever changes are needed. We all know that to be able to run and jump we must first learn to walk.

Percentages for the survey FYI ...
Out of the 1443 respondents, 70.3% were Club Members and 29.7% were non-Club Members

Could I ask out of the 66,000€ budget how much of that was spent on supplying server space for the "Free account users" and if this figure is known would that amount be included in the future IMA's budget for running the site.?

At this time only Ipernity S.A. may know the answer and they have not shared it with us. I would image at least 2/3 based on the fact that there are supposedly 27,000 non-paying accounts out of a total of 30,000 accounts by their last statement.

It seems that a number of people who wanted to donate to the crowd funding have not done so because of the need to use a credit card. At this stage is it possible to use an additional crowd funding site (even if there are fees) to enable these people to donate? Money from these people even if reduced by fees is better than no money from them.

That is a good suggestion dgmphoto =)

Keep in mind there is hardly no crowdfundings supported by PayPal anymore:
www.cnbc.com/2016/05/09/paypal-pulls-buyer-protection-for-crowdfunding-sites.html
(also other news sources mentioned along the discussions here)

Here's one option: gogetfunding.com

Yes! Please! I am ready and willing but unable to donate because I simply do not possess a credit card.

Dear Tim,
if you don't have any friend with a credit card, which you can ask to to it instaed of you, you may send the money to me via paypal, and I'll put it to Idiego under your name.
Please contact me via Mail.

Yes! Please. I am ready and willing to contribute to the fund but I simply do not have a credit card.

Final thought: If the 50€ membership fee has been set in stone and to satisfy people like myself with a fixed pension income and who will stay with the IMA, can the fee be split into 4 x payments of 12.5€ each quarter and I say 12.5€ without penalising members for taking advantage of easy term payments.

Tatsächlich scheint es so, dass beim Crowdfunding nun langsam die Luft raus ist:

Die tägliche Spendensumme sinkt kontinuierlich. Jetzt muss endlich der nächste Schritt kommen.

Ja. Im Nachhinein wäre es wohl besser gewesen, gleich 50.000,- als Ziel vorzugeben.
Hinterher ist man immer klüger.
JETZT greift die Psychologie: Viele haben z.T. schon seit Dezember IP den Rücken gekehrt, wissen also nicht, wie die Lage konkret ist.
Nun werden sie durch die Hilfe-Mail des IP-Teams auf die Crowdfunding-Seite gelenkt.
Und, was sehen sie da ? 25.000 wurden gebraucht. Fast 30.000 "sind im Kasten".
Also ehrlich, da würde ich auch nix mehr hinterherwerfen .....

Genau, warum nicht ein neues Ziel (50.000 USD) angeben ??

Just started my ‘own’ campaign to support the Ipernity crowdfunding.
Give IP crowdfunding a BOOST…..

Today I became more and more pessimistic about the future of Ipernity (and IMA).

Why:

- I started a BOOST-action for the Ipernity crowdfunding and 8 hours later I do have ZERO response (in the meantime I have stopped this action)
- The last 8 hours there are THREE donations on Generosity (including mine)
- I see more and more members leaving IP or being not active any longer; haven’t seen any members coming back from Fli… or 23HQ
- I see and read words, words and words, but don’t see actions or decisions
- The lack of communication and transparency is absolutely frustrating

I’m sorry to say, but I almost hope the take-over by IMA will fail, so I will get back my donations. Will rethink my activities here on Ipernity the next couple of days.

Jaap, the first goal of crowdfunding became reached. The minimum requirement of getting $25,000 USD has been fulfilled, even if the suspicious donations becomes removed. This means the negotiations between Ipernity S.A. and IMA continues as hoped and planned. IMA will collect the donated money next week, pay the current server costs, and finalize the agreement with Ipernity S.A..

So, if nothing surprising does not occur, the goal has been reached successfully. We of course still hope to get even more donations, to get as much time as possible for IMA to run the service before it comes the time to ask all members to pay the actual membership fees.

All of you, I hope you will not let today's activity, or lack of activity to depress you. For me the situation looks good, and when IMA indeed can start to run this service, then we can always start to ask people to return.

Hi Jaap and everyone this matters too.
Since your last donation today only 55 € has been contributed. So what does that say the obvious conclusion is people are giving up on this project of crowdfunding for so many reasons. All discussed in so many blogs All of which have been discussed at different times. Personally I think IP/SA and IMA did not have a plan that convinced the (used to be majority) to have any faith of a successful outcome. I have no regrets that I donated but not one more cent will I give to this obviously floundering situation. Both the IP/SA and IMA have to take responsibility for the failure to succeed.
So shoot me if I sound negative. Quite the opposite I tried to date to be positive. I will miss the photosharing and interactions between contacts and visitors to my site. ( if the IMA fail.)

Feel the same Tess.

Perhaps it is negative (or realistic) but in the meantime I really feel the take-over will not be successful. If said above I regret having paid the donations.

Hi Jaap
Please don't regret you donated you like me and many more tried to save the the site. I thought about it and decided I would try and I don't regret it. Hugs Tess.

"All of you, I hope you will not let today's activity, or lack of activity to depress you." What else could it do. It is stating a fact donations are not longer forthcoming.
Sami Wake up and smell the coffee. $25,000 only give a small frame of time to continue to service the site. If so few of the possible numbers of the survey actually contributed. What does that tell you. So many members have already stated that they will not be able to afford the compulsory $50 (fix incomes members) and the failure of IMA to offer a tired system has in my opinion cause lack of interest in continuing to save the IMA site.

I will personally wait till the very end, no matter if it is a success or a bitter failure.

Only 500 donations (including double ones) says a lot about the expectations for future paying memberships. If I was IMA i wouldn't count on no more than the same 500 !!

Sitting right next to you Sami... and either going in a blaze of success... or Glory !!!

I suggest that immediate action is taken to:

Contact those that completed the IMA survey and who said they would support the crowdfunding, but who have not yet done so with a view to encouraging them to come forward and make a donation.

Time to ask them to honour their pledges or at least find out why they haven't yet donated.

There has to be a reason why so few have paid into the kitty. Is it the lack of information; is it the thought of paying out several times over; is it the level of the proposed subscription fee; is it only being able to pay by credit card; or is it something else?

Hi Paul
" Contact those that completed the IMA survey and who said they would support the crowdfunding" That has been done.
But for ever reason ( lack of information and inability to pay because of the setup of how they could or could not pay ) In the end crowdfunding has failed. End of story. Regards Tess.

I know it's been said that emails went out Tess although I remain to be fully convinced of that, but my point is that there's obviously something gone wrong here and the IMA should be trying to engage with these people to find out what it is.

Otherwise, like you say we will have to conclude that the crowdfunding has indeed failed despite reaching the initial target.

I fear yet again though that it is we on the 'outside' that are talking around these issues ... maybe this is the end, or at least the beginning of the end! :(

Have not followed this discussion well because of language differences ... but -- transparency .... that is no problem.

Feel that things should be laid out - line by line with full explanations IN Transparency

There are those who learn easily by reading - others need it in black and white .. I'm one of those .. I learn by understanding what is said not what we need now - then down the road - then around the corner.

Transparent ... please..

Just my opinion ...

Reading through the comments, several statements must be corrected.

Sami Serola was chosen because of his energy, enthusiasm and efforts to save this site. IMA always looks for talented people who can advance the cause. At the same time, some people who have made tireless efforts to save this site are not founders because they declined due to personal circumstances (age, available time, family situations, etc.).

Sami is a legitimate IMA "founder" since the new Ipernity has yet to be established.

IMA founders are not worn down. Our efforts continue in public and behind the scenes to save this site.